Masse aufbauen

[hofimax]

Hi @all,

nachdem ich lange Zeit als "silent reader" im Board unterwegs war und viel interessanten gefunden habe, habe ich eine spezielle Frage.

Habe in den letzten 4 Monaten mit Radfahren und Laufen (meist im aeroben Bereich) etwa 7kg Fett wegbekommen und schätze meinen KF-Anteil auf 12% ein.

Jetzt will ich im Winter Masse aufbauen, besonders im Brust- und Armbreich (der beim Radln und Laufen wenig beansprucht wurde).

Da ich wenig Erfahrung mit Masseaufbau habe wollte ich fragen ob diese Rechnung die ich mir ausgedacht habe stimmt:

Wenn ich täglich "etwas" mehr Kilokalorien zu mir nehme, so dass mein Energiehaushalt positiv ist (mit viel eiweißhaltigen Produkten) und etwa 3-4 mal die Woche jeweils 1h langlaufe müsste ich doch (besonders am Oberkörper) Masse aufbauen können.

Vielleicht kann mir einer sagen ob ich hier richtig liege oder das nicht so witklich effektiv sein wird.

Mfg hofimax

[SirDogder]

NEIN!

[SirDogder]

damit meine ich:

1) NEIN, biiiite kein Masseaufbauthread, das ist das ganz falsche Forum dafür.
2) Wofür Masse, was willst du mit der "Mehrmasse" anfangen? Ist doch nur Balast, wenn du es nicht brauchst.
3) Mit Langlaufen kannst du definitiv nicht Masse aufbauen. Gottseidank.

[hofimax]

1) NEIN, biiiite kein Masseaufbauthread, das ist das ganz falsche Forum dafür.

Sorry

2) Wofür Masse, was willst du mit der "Mehrmasse" anfangen? Ist doch nur Balast, wenn du es nicht brauchst.

Mit 65kg bei 178cm könnten ein paar Kilo mehr Muskelmasse meiner Meinung nach nicht schaden.

3) Mit Langlaufen kannst du definitiv nicht Masse aufbauen. Gottseidank

Gar nicht? Dass es nichtso schnell geht wie im Fitnesstudio ist mir schon klar, aber es muss doch einen beschränkten Effekt geben oder nicht?

[Matthias]

Wenn du Hilfestellung suchst, wird's diese am ehehsten in diesem Forum finden!

[HAL9000]

Original geschrieben von judma
Wenn du Hilfestellung suchst, wird's diese am ehehsten in diesem Forum finden!

oder warte, bis der adal diesen thread entdeckt...

btw, als biker solltest du über 65kg bei 178 froh sein, und nicht, wie
der sir schon gesagt hat, unnötigen ballast da oben herumschleppen.
kräftigen schadet sicher nicht, aber masse brauchst da nicht...

CU,
HAL9000

[adal]

Original geschrieben von HAL9000
oder warte, bis der adal diesen thread entdeckt...

btw, als biker solltest du über 65kg bei 178 froh sein, und nicht, wie
der sir schon gesagt hat, unnötigen ballast da oben herumschleppen.
kräftigen schadet sicher nicht, aber masse brauchst da nicht...

CU,
HAL9000

Nein, mich reizts nur, wenn die Frage wenigstens zeigt, dass der Fragesteller irgendwas vorher gelesen hat.

Fragen am Level, "ich würd nächstes Jahr gern die Top 6 gewinnen, soll ich mir ein Radl kaufen oder gehts auch mitm skateboard" machen keinen Spaß.

Aber ums zu beantworten, das ist die kürzeste Fassung zu Gewichtstraining:

How to Train Yourself

by Gunnar Dahlin

From Hardgainer #62 - September/October 99'




Lifting weights is a simple activity made complicated by many people. Generally speaking, I believe the HARDGAINER readership is intelligent, but too philosophical for its own good. There’s too much pondering of absolutes, and changing of perfectly workable programs.



Everything you need to know has been in HARDGAINER at one time or another. I want to encapsulate all of this, and add some of my own experiences, to give a blueprint for use. This is not just aimed at beginners, but at anyone who is not progressing well.



Lifting weights is an activity pursued for a number of different reasons. My personal reason for lifting weights is to get stronger. For some people, strength is enough. For those interested in getting bigger, the good news is that a stronger muscle will be a bigger muscle. As long as you can add a little weight to the bar with good form, and for as many reps as you did last week, you’re going in the right direction. If you do this for a long time, you’ll get stronger and eventually bigger.



When someone makes the transition to an abbreviated routine, things should be simple. After all, you work hard at lifting the weights, you eat enough, and get plenty of rest. However, in the world of abbreviated training there are many ways of working out. Most are good, some less so, and some are downright bad. What’s important is what works for the individual both physically and mentally. I’ll outline a blueprint for building strength and size; but it will be you who tailors this blueprint to something that works for you.



What’s the best way to train? Generally speaking, the best way is to work hard on the big exercises--squats, deadlifts, and upper-body pushing and pulling movements. The more muscles that are involved in a lift, the more return for your effort. So the first thing is to pick some big basic lifts and get real good at them. This choice is critical because you’ll train on those lifts for a long time.



From the group of basic lifts you have to decide which are best for you. You have to take into consideration what you can safely perform, what you have access to, and what you enjoy. If you like to squat but have no rack in your home gym, deadlifts will be the substitute. If injuries make barbell presses dangerous, a machine or dumbbells might fit the bill. The best way is to compare your form on the lifts to that described in Stuart’s book on exercise technique. If you get the form picture perfect and can do a lift without pain, it should be safe for you. If a lift is hurtful to your joints, and causes non-muscular pain, it should be ditched pronto. Find the good lifts and stick with them. The rest are irrelevant.



Choose lifts you feel strong or even brutal at. They will be more fun to do than similar lifts without that special “feel.” Choosing lifts you enjoy is important since it increases the chance of consistency and persistence--critical factors for success. Commit this to memory. You’ll see this material again.



When you’ve chosen your exercises, it’s time to decide on the reps and sets for each lift. What’s important is to find a number of reps and sets that works for you, and is challenging and fun to do. Generally speaking, we define low-rep work as 1–5 reps, medium reps as 6–12 and everything above as high reps. If you prefer many reps in a set, you do fewer sets. Thus total reps might be done as 3 sets of 5–6 reps, 2 sets of 10–12 or one set of 20. Those are rough guidelines only, and you may find you prefer different reps in different lifts. There’s no need to worry about fiber types and body chemistry at this stage, if ever. Just pick the big lifts and work hard. That will make your body grow.



For the rank beginner and also the intermediate who has mastered form, I would suggest performing 2–3 major exercises a session, with one warmup set on upper-body lifts and two warmup sets on lower-body lifts. This will be followed by two work sets with the same weight. I suggest starting at 6 reps for every set on every exercise. After a couple of months you should have a good idea whether or not a count of 6 reps is good for you. If it’s good, stick with it, otherwise change the number of reps slightly up or down.



The reason I picked 6 reps as a good place to start is that the weight will not be so heavy that form is easily compromised, or so light that it’s not challenging and not taken seriously by the lifter. Too light a weight, in my opinion, will mean less focus and concentration during the set. Another advantage is that if you start this program well below your current maximum, you’ll have a long time in which to perfect the form and technique. Then when the going gets hard, form will be second nature and you’ll be able to put your effort into lifting. It’s the long uninterrupted stretch of successful workouts that will build your body.



There’s no such thing as a perfect training program, but even if there was it would be useless if you did not like it, shirked your workout, worked less than hard, or changed the program around. Find something you can live with for a year or two, and knuckle down to a long stretch of growing. It’s vitally important to give a big basic exercise a fair chance to prove itself. Success comes from working the same good lifts for as long as they yield results. And that’s much longer than you might believe. If the target reps are not met, stay at the same weight the next time, and maybe the next too, before changing anything.



Individualization

You will, however, have to adjust things that are not working well. I firmly believe that training for strength is the best way, since strength is a good yardstick. If you continuously get stronger on a certain lift, given the same form and rep speed as last week, you’re getting stronger. If you fail to increase the poundage on another lift in the same routine, I suggest sticking with that lift for three more workouts. If after that time you still have not made progress, it’s time to look for another target rep, or sometimes even a similar lift. Let’s assume that you’re getting 6 perfect reps on the chin while hanging a little extra weight on your belt every week; but at the same time your bench press is stuck at one rep less than the target of 6. The easiest way to go ahead is by accepting that 5 reps is a more suitable rep count for the bench. But you don’t know this for sure at this point. However, if you easily up your weight over a few workouts, you were probably more suited to 5 reps than 6. If you do no better at 5 reps than 6, it’s time to increase the reps--drop the weight and do 10. Continue from that point the next workout. You still have to work hard here. You must not slacken because you’ve lowered the weight. If after several periods of trial and error you still don’t make progress, it’s time to look for another lift.



Some people like to train to what’s called failure, i.e., the inability to lift the weight once more in good form. That’s a valid form of training, and will produce results in those who do it consistently. If, however, you don’t manage to get in gear for a workout like that, a program of multiple sets with a lower rep count might be better. It will be easier to get up for, but will take somewhat longer to perform and might bore some other fellow to tears. I can psyche up for one set to failure at a time, but have real difficulty going to failure throughout a whole workout without someone yelling at me. When I train with my wife and brother I can get this, but since they are not always there it would be impractical for me to base my workouts on training to failure.



Physical reasons also come into play here. Some people are more suited to a certain number of reps than are others. Again find out what you prefer. My brother likes deadlifts done to near failure and excels at the farmer’s walk. On the other hand he has great difficulties doing more than 5 reps in any upper-body movement. As long as you’re adding weight with the same form and for the same reps, you’re on track.



A related matter is the speed of every rep. Again this is somewhat individual, but for most people a fairly slow controlled speed is the best. There’s no need to exaggerate this. If you can stop a lift at the midpoint, and then continue the movement, you know that you’re in control and moving slowly enough. Find a speed you like and stick to it for every rep. Counting seconds is something you might do on a warmup, but when you get to the work sets the groove should already be there. That’s also a reason why sticking to the same lifts is important. You have to get good at the lifts in a technical sense. This is true even of machine exercises.



A common concern is rest between sets. Again this is a personal thing. Some like to do all their lifts without rest in between. Personally I use a timer set for 2, 3 or 4 minutes, depending on the day and lifts to be performed. When it beeps I begin a lift; and I get the time after the set is finished to rest before it beeps again. It’s not very scientific, and gives different rest periods depending on the number of reps I do for a given set, but it’s a practical way to keep the workout flowing, and keep me from resting too long.



What’s more important is the rest between sessions. This is an individual thing based on age, recuperative abilities, the length of your routine, work days and other things. Lifting two days a week is a good start. If you have very brief workouts, three training days is feasible too. For a beginner, lifting any less frequently than once every fifth day is probably counterproductive. The rest and recovery is when the muscles grow back bigger and better. A beginner will not be able to stress the muscles as hard as an advanced lifter, and thus he does not need as much time to rebuild his muscles. Also, lifting weight is a skill. If you don’t train a lift often enough in the beginning, the body will have a hard time learning the proper way to move. Some lifts will be awkward at first, and practice together with stretching is what makes the exercises second nature. So, for beginners, forget about doing a lift once every second week, for example. Anything between lifting every fifth day and lifting three times a week is fine.



Unless dictated by out-of-gym factors, do not get locked up in the seven-day week. Once every third day will have you training a little more than twice a week, and might suit some. The possibilities are numerous. The important part is getting there at the scheduled day or the day after. An extra day of rest is a fine thing, but too many will cause backsliding.



A basic routine would have you performing squats, bench presses and chins every third day. This will give adequate recovery for most beginners. When the poundages get hard to handle, it’s time to add an extra rest day, so now you would be training twice a week. Another rest day and you would train once every fourth day. At this point your lower back might be needing more rest, so you might drop squats on one of the sessions. That, however, is a big reduction in squatting frequency. Here it might be better to go back to working out every third day with squats on one day and benches and chins on the other. I’ve been squatting for several years and I fail to maintain good form if I squat more seldom than once every eight days.



Equipment and Location

Both your workout schedule and your selection of lifts will depend on where you lift. Since it’s almost impossible to work out in a commercial gym without adopting at least a few bad lifting habits, I would suggest a small home gym for the serious lifter.



The sole advantage of a commercial gym is more equipment, especially for cardio training. However, the only thing needed for productive training is a barbell, a sturdy floor and lots of plates. With all that you can do deadlifts, rows and shoulder presses. So, for a home gym, your first choice would be a good barbell. Next item is a power rack. It’s costly, but not more so than a gym membership. This piece of iron will allow you to do squats in perfect safety. It will also enable you to do bench presses in safety. A bench is the third important item. Everything on top of that is nice but not strictly speaking necessary. The lack of equipment is actually a boon since it means less risk of frittering your energy away on whatever strikes your fancy in the gym. Also, given a small selection of lifts, you’ll master those lifts. When you have a few good lifts that you enjoy and progress well on, it might be time to get a pair of good dumbbell rods, and a dip belt for attaching weight for chins or dips. You can perform dips in a rack by securing a pair of pipes to the pins. Later on, a stationary bike may be a good purchase.



A home gym does not need to occupy a lot of space. You need a room that’s at least 7 feet by 8 feet to fit in everything. More is not needed. To protect the floor and spread the weight of your equipment, use a big sheet of plywood on which you attach soft carpeting. The carpeted side is placed down, facing the floor. A garage floor is seldom level, but most other floors are. If you live in an apartment, a small room is best to train in, since the stress on the floor is quite severe.



In my view the most important thing with the home gym is that there’s no threshold to overcome in order to train. The task of going to a gym may be a worse chore than the workout itself. On the other hand it’s tempting to train too often in a home gym. The best way to avoid that is by working so hard that you feel the need for rest, and by having good alternative activities. In short, have a life.



If you train at a commercial gym, get in and out as fast as possible. A commercial gym should be rather small yet have a good selection of bars and machines, and adequate space so you can lift without being fearful of hitting people or equipment. There should be at least one power rack, and the absence of Smith machines is a boon. Benches should be sturdy, equipment should be cleaned and bars well-knurled. Squats and deadlifts should be allowed, as should chalk. If there are many obvious drug users, or an atmosphere that you don’t like, you should avoid the place. Don’t get a month or year membership the first day. Check the place against this article, and if you’re not satisfied, look for another gym.



There are people who see the gym as a social outlet. I don’t. You go to the gym to lift and maybe do some cardio. To some, the need to compete makes them work harder in a gym. If that’s the case, by all means go there but focus on your own workout. There’s no need to be hostile, but except for helping other people in dire straits, your mission in the gym is to train yourself--with ever-increasing poundages, with good form, persistently and consistently for a long time.



Sample Routines

Train twice a week, 2 work sets per exercise.



Routine A

1. Squat or leg press: 4 x 6

2. Shoulder press with barbell, dumbbells or machine: 3 x 6

3. Chin or pulldown to the front: 3 x 6

4. Crunch situp: 2 x 12–15, dumbbell on chest

5. Do a flexed hang for time--chin up and fight to stay up for as long as possible



Routine B

1. Squat or deadlift or partial deadlift: 4 x 6

2. Bench press, or dip or machine chest press: 3 x 6

3. Barbell, dumbbell or machine row: 3 x 6

4. Side bend: 2 x 10

5. Hang for time with extended arms



Either routine could be done twice a week with a caveat for deadlifts. Deadlifts are generally recommended to be done less often. One of the routines could also be done every fourth or fifth day with good results. Or the two routines could be alternated from workout to workout.



Pick a program, work hard, be consistent and progressive, and in a few years you may be accused of not being a hard gainer.



Gunnar can be contacted by e-mail at gandalf@home.se

[traveller23]

also kräftiger wirst sicher durchs langlaufen..

Obs deiner Definition von Masse entspricht is wieder was anderes.

12% Körperfett hört sich auch ned so schlecht an.

[wuwo]

Jetzt will ich im Winter Masse aufbauen,......


kommt drauf an welche masse?

am einfachsten gehts sicher wennst da in der früh und am abend jeweils 2 steaks mit pommes und ana knoblauchsouce einehaust. bekommst masse genug.

[hofimax]

Nun ja, fürs radln is es ja eh ideal mein Gewicht, bloß komme ich mir persönlich etwas zu "gering" vor, und da ich das Radfahren nicht "professionell" betreibe (sprich Rennen und so) wären mir 2-3 kg mehr Muskeln "egal".

Grundsätzlich würde mir noch eine Antwort auf die Frage wegen des Enerhiehaushaltes fehlen: Ist meine Theorie richtig, dass ich mit etwas Überschuss (durch Proteine vorzugsweise) Muskeln aufbauen kann, oder genügt eine ausgeglichene Energiebilanz ebenfalls?

Mfg
hofimax

[hermes]

Original geschrieben von wuwo
[I]Jam einfachsten gehts sicher wennst da in der früh und am abend jeweils 2 steaks mit pommes und ana knoblauchsouce einehaust. bekommst masse genug.

also ich würd nicht grad eine mahlzeit auslassen, wenn ich masse aufbaun wolltat

[hermes]

Original geschrieben von hofimax
Nun ja, fürs radln is es ja eh ideal mein Gewicht, bloß komme ich mir persönlich etwas zu "gering" vor, und da ich das Radfahren nicht "professionell" betreibe (sprich Rennen und so) wären mir 2-3 kg mehr Muskeln "egal".

hab selber 63kg bei 180cm und mir fehlt sicher nix! wieso solltest zu gering sein? und professionell fahr ich auch nicht. grad darum bin ich froh, wenn ich ein paar kilo weniger den berg rauf schleppen muss.

[adal]

Original geschrieben von hofimax
Grundsätzlich würde mir noch eine Antwort auf die Frage wegen des Enerhiehaushaltes fehlen: Ist meine Theorie richtig, dass ich mit etwas Überschuss (durch Proteine vorzugsweise) Muskeln aufbauen kann, oder genügt eine ausgeglichene Energiebilanz ebenfalls?

Theoretisch kannst sogar während eines Defizits aufbauen, ist nur unwahrscheinlich. Die Frage obst Muskulatur aufbaust hängt vom Hormonzustand ab, kalorische Unterernährung führt zu katabolem (abbauendem) Mileu und umgekehrt. Aber möglich wärs, wennst von Natur aus einen sehr hohen Testospiegel hast, oder den (so wie Profibodybuilder) "sonstwie" oben hältst.

In der Praxis, musst wennst ernsthaft aufbauen willst, natürlich mehr futtern, allerdings viel mehr als 2g/Protein pro Tag und kg Körpergewicht bringt ohne Stoff nix. Dann lieber mehr Kohlehydrate ...

[wuwo]

Original geschrieben von hermes
also ich würd nicht grad eine mahlzeit auslassen, wenn ich masse aufbaun wolltat

jo, des is schon klar.
das hab ich natürlich bedacht. aber die 500 gramm leberkäse zu mittag sind jedoch durch wieder aus dem körper gegangen.

[SirDogder]

Übrigens: Vor kurzem (paar Monaten) hat mich ein Bekannter gefragt, wie er am schnellsten Masse aufbaut. Ich hab ihm gesagt, dass es nur Präperate geht. Glaubt er nicht, sagt er und probierts so, meinen Hinweis, dass Masse für nix guat ist, ignorierend.

Letzte Woche triff ich ihn wieder, hat er mir sein Zeug gezeigt, was er jetzt nimmt. Kein Schas. 3 Kilo Box mit irgendwas "Anabol dingsdings".

Was das wohl ist?

Und er hat schon Masse zugelegt.